The Imperial Shipyards
Imperial Entertainment TV and Movies => Star Wars Movies => Topic started by: hangarbay94 on April 19, 2012, 06:21:49 AM
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The People vs. George Lucas... First off its a must see, very funny with some unashamed Star Wars love.
The most interesting point raised was older fans dissappointment with the Prequals. Some saying they had the effect of raping the wonderful childhood memories by ruining the the original saga. Others made the point that the new generation of fans preferred the Prequals so Lucas achieved his goals.
It poses the question: should Lucad have made films that appealed to an older audience or for kids... Did you have your childhood raped or do you think Lucas justifiably made the Prequals for a new generation?
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I think the prequels are terribly flawed films, and I really dislike the retroactive meddling Lucas has done to the original trilogy. I understand that they are his films, he created them and gave them to us, but on that same note, it so enthralled a generation that I really don't believe it's possible to say that the films belong to him anymore; they belong to the fans, and for him to go back and continuously meddle with them to bring them in line with the more CGI-happy and 3-year-old friendly feel of the prequels... that disappoints me as a lifelong fan.
I just want the ORIGINAL, UNALTERED trilogy, cleaned up.
I'd say that Adywan's Star Wars Revisited project has vastly improved over Lucas' re-re-re-releases in every possible way by keeping in what made the originals so very great and cutting out 99% of all of the changes Lucas made afterwards.
...But getting back to the original topic, the prequels suck. Revenge of the Sith is the only partially-decent film of the lot, and even then it's fundamentally broken as a narrative.
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Smeagol,
A very well put reply.
I guess I'm still in the "I forgive Lucas as he created Star Wars in the first place" catagory, though what you say does ring true. If I can accuse George Lucas of anything, it's selfishness.
Personally the Prequals did not impress me. Episode 2 was a complete dissappointment and Ep3 was ok. All of the films are Star Wars but there is definately something missing for me. Saying that my kids prefer the Prequals, and when I was a kid my father hated Star Wars, so that's got to be worth something in this argument. The prequals appeal to the kids, in the same way that the Original Trilogy appealed to us when we were kids. Look at the Ewoks for Christ's sake, the Emperor's Elite Stormtroopers being overwhemed by stone throwing teddy bears....really?!?! For me the true magic still lies with Star Wars A New Hope and Empire, both of which have to be considered as two of the finest movies ever made.
Did Lucas ruin the OT... in my opinion yes, that was my thought after I saw Episode 2. Did he destroy my childhood? no, but he put a dark cloud over one of my best memories. Am I angry...no. Lucas still managed to create two of my favourite movies and a third that is a perfeclty acceptable conclusion to the three. I still need my Star Wars fix after 30 + years and I still get enjoyment from the experience.
The only good thing to come out of the prequals is the Clone Wars TV show, which I think is a beautiful work of art with some wonderful story telling.
I agree with you about ownership. Lucas is the creator but he doesn't own Star Wars , I think he owes the long term fans something a bit better than the prequals and a load of re-releases. We need something for us, and if he can't give it to us I am sure someone else will be able to pick up the torch. There has got to be a talented film maker out there who is as passionalte about Star Wars as we are, who could make one hell of a sequal...if only George wasn't so selfish with his creation.
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You know, I won't lie; I walked out of the theater all three times for the prequels jabbering like an excitable monkey about what I had just seen. Episode I was amazing, Episode II was huge in its sweep with a bittersweet love story, and Episode III was a tour de force (lol) of war drama and white-knuckle action.
...It was the next morning, and the following weeks, that it sunk in just how shoddy the story was.
I will say that when Lucas re-released the original trilogy in theaters back in the '90s, I had a much different feeling walking out of the theaters. It actually made me feel more connected to my father, who was a HUGE Star Wars fan before he passed away in 1989; he instilled the love of the trilogy in me as a small child and after I waited in line for hours to see ANH in the theater, I walked out of the thing with tears in my eyes, knowing how my father must have felt in 1977, seeing it on the big screen for the first time.
That is something that the prequels just don't have.
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It's interesting that your Father loved Star Wars, mine just called it "Star Bores" .
So for me and you, and so many more of us, Lucas has let us down. And even though he set himself and almost impossible task, he could, and should, have done much better.
Now he owes us... he owes us big time. Star Wars has become bigger than the creator, he needs to let go of his feelings and listen to the Force!
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I couldn't agree more. Heck, just searching Google for Star Wars fan films turns up over 5.5 MILLION results; it's clear that there are other filmmakers out there that are dying to play with the toys Papa Lucas gave us. When he passes away, Lucasfilm is going to undergo some RADICAL changes... not the least of which is going to certainly be more original, big-budget Star Wars properties, done by the fans who fuel the whole thing, who just want to pay homage to one of the greatest cinematic sagas ever committed to celluloid.
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Things we experienced as children, will not, and cannot, be reproduced in adulthood. Our lifelong experiences just will not allow for that. Frankly, watch Return of the Jedi again, and tell me honestly that it is as amazing to you now as it was then. You know in your heart it was not. Those damn Ewoks are no better than the Gungans, the swordplay between Luke and Vader was terrible, and Luke continuously acted like a child playing grown up. However, it's still my favorite of them all.
That being said, the Prequels cannot hold as much nostalgia or fondness for them as the Original Trilogy did. Lucas held true to his formula, just 22 years apart. The story is fine, in my book. I did enjoy seeing how young Anakin became the twisted Darth Vader. Sure, I'd have preferred to have the Postquels (?) to see the aftermath of the Fall of the Empire, with Luke's advancement to Jedi Master charged with the task of rebuilding the Jedi Legacy. Instead, we got to see how terrible of an actor Jake Lloyd was. My biggest disappointment was how whiny Anakin was throughout all 3 movies, and the death of Darth Maul, who I think should have been slain by Anakin in Episode III.
So all in all, I guess my answer is No, I do not feel like my childhood was "raped." I think we have all been so lovestruck with the franchise since we were kids, we expected to have that same reactions with the prequels, but that's just not possible. We've grown up, seen hundreds of movies since, experienced more in our lives than we could have imagined. I do agree that he should have left the originals alone, but that's not enough to condemn the man. I truly think too many fanboys are so wrapped up in their self appointed superiority complexes, that they've chosen to attack the man for what he's done. And I bet those same fanboys own all of the movies on multiple formats, along with many of the toys, video games, and memorabilia. Seems silly to me, really. In the end, the experience is what you want to take from it, and what you want it to be. Me? I'm pretty happy!
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Another good set of points, it's good to hear an established fan shine a positive light on this.
It's funny, because although the Ewoks were the weakest part of the OT, I loved the Endor setting.
I was 14 when ROTJ came out and I remember not being so excited as I'd been when I saw the first two films, so I guess your point about experiences and age getting in the way ring true. Saying that how do you explain Smeagol's point that his father was a huge Star Wars fan after seeing it for the first time back in 77? He was an adult and he "got it"... Are you saying as adults we are incapable of having an imagination, or having a sence of wonder of amazing things? Are we incapable of deep experiences?
Maybe those questions are for psycologists... :-\
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I just despised that the Ewoks lived on what was supposed to be Kashyyk, while Kashyyk was presented as a FREAKING SWAMP PLANET.
How miserable of a failure was THAT on-screen?
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Endor WAS beautiful, no doubt!
In no way am I saying that as adults, we are incapable of imagination. This site alone is proof of that! We do become jaded by our experiences, sure, and there's an exception to every rule. Overall, I think we want to cling to our positive experiences as children, because in the real world of adults, there is far less wonderment around every corner. Sad, but true.
If anything, I think Dave Filoni has done far worse. Ahsoka Tano and her obnoxious lingo irritated me enough that I stopped watching the cartoon altogether! BUT, it does accomplish the task of bringing in new generations to our marvelous Star Wars Universe that we all cherish so much.
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Wow, I really enjoyed reading all of the points here.
I think for me I can do away with the prequels except for one thing I think they did very well: establishing Clone Troopers.
I think those characters in and of themselves saved the prequels in my eyes. Of course they don't hold a candle to my love for TESB or all the the OT Films, but I think those characters and their lot in life struck a chord with all of us established OT Fans. I still find myself, every now and then, picking up an odd Clone Trooper Character here and there or see one of the customs here of a new Trooper and just sit in amazement.
Take a look at one of those Sideshow Clones and tell me they aren't one of the coolest things out there. So, I agree with most of the points here and yes I do think much of the prequel allure is lost on me, but bring on more and more Clones I say!
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Great conversation guys!
I'm an OT guy too. I was just old enough to catch Return of the Jedi. I was 5 when it came out. I loved everything about that movie. Eventhough now as an adult I do think the Ewoks are rediculous and no way in hell should they have kicked the stormies butt. But, when I saw Wicket and Logray on the new vintage cards I had to buy them. That is also the case for the two versions of Jedi Luke that have come out. The kid in me had to have them.
Anyway, back to the movies, I think Hayden Christensen's acting kind of ruined the Prequals. Episode I was totally geared towards kids. Which I think was planned to get a whole new generation of SW fans. That is ok, but turns off the old SW fans. Lastly, I think the tinkering with the OT is kind of lame. If it aint broke, then don't fix it!
A few more points I want to throw in. I think it's kind of funny how the cartoon seems more dark then any of the films. (More death and cold blooded killing) I'm not complaining though, the cartoon is pretty cool. Anakin is more the way he should have been in the movie. I didn't like Ahsoka at first but she has grown on me.
I would like to see another trilogy. Ep. 7,8,9. You could even use Mark Hamil and gang. I would also like to see some kind of spinoff for Boba Fett. I would love to see some movies or even a tv series just about Boba. Even a Boba vs. Predator movie would be totally cool.
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CS78-that story was great. Your right that'd be a epic book.
Phatty- I totally agree jake did a horrible job acting >:(
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I'm not a huge fan of the prequels but some of it is ok. I have to admit that I don't watch them and I've even changed the channel a number of times when they were on TV. I do like the clones but that's about it. The PT is just not my thing.
As for the tinkering of the OT, sure it's Lucas's work and he can do what he wants but I liken it to music or a piece of artwork. When I first heard a song and liked it, I liked it as it was. You can come in later and clean up the audio but if you start adding notes and changing the chorus then it's just not the same song whether I like the changes or not. Go ahead, make a remix, an extended version, etc... and I might even like it but, again, it's just not the same song. A New Hope is not the same "Star Wars" movie that I saw when I was a kid. Many things that I loved are now gone such as the small western-like town of Mos Eisley and Tatooine as a whole, the gunslinging Han Solo who shoots first…. and I could go on. They may not seem like important changes but to me those things are what made me like it and were the things that connected me to the film.
Anyway, I'm just glad that I'm in a good enough place where I can complain about this type of stuff. :)
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Anyway, I'm just glad that I'm in a good enough place where I can complain about this type of stuff. :)
That's what we were shooting for!
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Yes, I am also of the mind that I was lucky enough to have seen Star Wars first time around, it was the biggest high I've ever experienced.
Lucas should listen to his fans though and loosen his grip on his creation. I wish we had a new movie that is aimed at us older fans and give us our Star Wars back. In the meantime this thread has prompted me to scour the FAN EDIT scene as there have been some great re-edits of the Prequals. Adiwan definitely gave Star Wars back to me so Perhaps I can put together my own Saga and post the links here.
J
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Wow, I posted the link over on our FB Page and was asked if I was a retard! LOL, well I probably am, but people sure do feel strongly either way about this. I got rid of all the hate over there and am guessing rape was probably a rather strong word to use, but I do sometimes feel too that we should just leave well enough alone when it comes to our movies sometimes.
I love the sound of your own saga Jules.
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Definitely second the notion that ol' George needs to loosen his grip. One of the things that made the OT so strong was that it was a collaborative effort between him and guys like McQuarrie, Lorne Peterson and Ben Burtt (and later Lawrence Kasdan and Irvin Kershner). What made the most impact on people in 1977? The fact that the story adapted elements of Kurosawa? Prolly not! The spaceship designs, the hum of the lightsabers, etc were the things that made people take notice. And a lot of those innovations came from not having an infinite budget, having studio suits and even colleagues in the position to criticize his ideas, whereas now I get the impression that he's surrounded by yes-men who tell him his every bowel movement is solid gold, if you'll forgive the expression. I kind of feel like creativity thrives in the face of adversity, so literally being able to do anything (or having delusions of grandeur) will cause the art to suffer. I'm reiterating some points that others have made previously, but I'm glad I got to sound off a bit on this topic.
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Maybe I'm the crazy one here. I've been a Star Wars fan since I was 6 years old. I was born in '85 so no I didn't see the originals on the big screen. But I did see the unaltered version 100's of times and knew those movies like the back of my hand by the time the SE came out. When I saw them and the new changes I loved them all. (sure with time I began to see the flaws in SOME of the changes) And the prequels came along. I was 12 when Ep. I and I was floored by it. I loved every minute of it! Same story with Ep 2 and 3. In the years since I've gone back and seen the flaws in the prequels and have gone through in my mind "What I would've done differently" First of all Anakin wounld'nt have bee as young as he was. I would've made him 14-15ish. JarJar was a little annoying as I got older but he's NEVER ruined the movie for me. Other things I wouldve done was have Padme live through Anakins attack on her, but then have a flash fowards of sorts to show her funeral and then include a shot of a little girl walking along the funeral procession. (The little girl of course being Leia) That would at least "show" Liea did spend a little time with her real mother. There are some other small tweeks I would make here and there but overall I would leave them the same. The OT changes that GL has made honestly don't bother me much. The only one that even comes close to sorta bothering me is the Vader "NOOO" at the end of ROTJ. And when I say bother I mean, I just liked it the way it was but don't really care that it has changed. And true the Jabba scene doesn't really work and blah blah blah. But ALL of the changes have been cosmetic. Nothing has changed the story of any of the movies, I mean, does a shockwave from an exploding planet really just ruin the movie for you? That can't be anything else but being angry at the fact that it doesn't look like it did when they were kids. It does not change a thing. And honestly if the Prequel are so terrible then so are the Originals. YES I SAID IT! The originals are just as flawed as the Prequels. "Anakin is waaayy too whiney"! Oh and Luke wasn't. Luke whined the WHOLE time in ANH and was a bit whinny in ESB too. Jar Jar is annoying. Threepio didn't get on your nerves at least once? But like I said maybe it's just me, Adywan can take a scene and re order the whole thing but GL adds a shockwave and your childhood is raped. (Just to let you know I downloaded his edit and loved it! Amazing work) I'm not saying the changes were needed. THEY WEREN'T! But were they really just a raping of childhood. Just because an x-wing swings left instead of swinging right? Or that theres a shockwave around the DS explosions? And did the hue of a star destroyer engine just totally kill you? Most of you will say yes...and probably look at me as a GL tool. So I'm a tool because I don't mind the changes, bc I enjoyed the prequels as much as I did as the OT? (I hated that Clone Wars cartoon thing though). So am I not a true SW fan because I like the prequels and think the PT hate is utterly rediculous? It just doesn't make any sense to me.
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Everyone is entitled to their opinion and mb421 welcome to ISY and it is so interesting to read your opinoin and you have some very fine points. I like the fact that everyone here has argued their points and not directed any animosity or anger toward a person and is respecting their opinions.
I do understand what you are saying mb and I happened to really like the Clone Wars Anime with Genndy Tartakovsky as it showed us some really unique Clones, but once again thats just my opinion and that and twenty five cents won't get you a phone call nowadays.
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I've never been a "Raped my childhood" kind of guy but a few things stuck out to me just now.
The OT changes that GL has made honestly don't bother me much. The only one that even comes close to sorta bothering me is the Vader "NOOO" at the end of ROTJ. And when I say bother I mean, I just liked it the way it was but don't really care that it has changed. And true the Jabba scene doesn't really work and blah blah blah. But ALL of the changes have been cosmetic. Nothing has changed the story of any of the movies, I mean, does a shockwave from an exploding planet really just ruin the movie for you?
I'm just going to start with the fact that this is the first time I have EVER heard anyone complain (or imply there were complaints) about the shockwave.
But while your specific examples are cosmetic, there are sceanes that do alter the story, Han shooting first, Wampa being clearly seen (Changes the entire tone of the first sceane of ESB), and while it can be argued Jabba's band is just cosmetic, the sequence does change to mood and tone of Jabba's palace. The Jabba sceane you mentioned is kind of redundant as it says exactly what was said with the Greedo sceane before it, again redundancy does effect the story.
And honestly if the Prequel are so terrible then so are the Originals. YES I SAID IT! The originals are just as flawed as the Prequels. "Anakin is waaayy too whiney"! Oh and Luke wasn't. Luke whined the WHOLE time in ANH and was a bit whinny in ESB too. Jar Jar is annoying. Threepio didn't get on your nerves at least once?
Well, Luke never tried to speak with such a fake british accent. Seriously the accent got on my nerves more than the whineyness. What was up with that I have no idea, Vader never had such an accent through his synth thingy, Jake loydd (who I found more annoying than Jar Jar just for bad acting) never did either. Hayden is a decent actor (I've seen him in other stuff and enjoyed him) but his role as Anakin was really forced, he sounded worse than me trying to fake an accent, seriously, and everytime he spoke it pulled you right out of the moment.
All that said there are things I like about the prequels, new Jedi, new Bounty Hunters, expanding of worls like Courisant, Kamino, ect. Even Battle Droids for the most part (At least in consept)
But there is a ton I really don't like as well. Red Letter Media has a series of reviews that really hit a ton of things I don't like and I could go all day, but here are the biggies.
Lots of flash, little substance. Ep 2 really personifies this, I kind of liked the end battle but utlmatly it was just pretty pictures with little emotional investment.
Speaking of emotional investment, lightsaber battles. There was literally little to no emotional investment with those fights (one could argue Obi Wan and Akakin in Ep 3 had some, but that was it). Vader and Kenobi had emotional investment (even if we didn't fully understand it at first) and every time Luke faced Vader there was an emotional undertone (for different reasons each time). With the prequels it was all flash and nothing with it. The whole thing didn't resonate with me at all. And don't get me started on Mexican jumping bean Yoda.
Jar-Jar, not cause he was annoying, but he really didn't seem to fit in with Star Wars. He just seemed so far off the track from previous characters that he seemed to be from another movie, thankfully his role was lessoned, but he really bugged me (However, not nearly as bad as Jake Loyd's terrible acting-YEOCH).
There was Anakin's turn, Lucas internalized it too much IMO. Really there are people who still argue that Anakin turned because he wasn't granted Jedi Master rank (which Anakin's protests are a huge plot hole as he said his not achieving the rank was unpresetend, even though Lucas's own press releases/information for Episode 1 Stated Ki-Adi-Mundi was only a Jedi Knight as well and was on the consol).
But MOST of all, my biggest gripe was the Jedi itself, they came accross as zealots and tyrants (stealling kids into a life of seritude at a young age with NO choice by the children, and from what we learned of Dooku's story it is apparently VERY hard to leave the Order once inducted. That's not even getting into the whole oath of celebacy thing that everyone in the EU seems to rally against but ultimatly created the whole problem). While I like the Jedi Characters overall, the order just really made them look bad, in fact I'm one of those that really thinks they were the real bad guys (Hey they do bad guy things like lie, manipulate, keep secrets that are unessessary, ect). The Jedi could have been presented much better as well IMO.
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Yeah, I didn't know anyone complained about the shockwave either but I've seen several post and some of my friends act like that shockwave ruins the whole trilogy. The Wampa attack, Jabbas band, Solo shoots first; they changed the mood. But do they change the story? No they don't. Except for the Solo scene, the Wampa scene and the Jabba band scene could be taken out and it wouldn't affect the overall story too much. Do I like the new changes? Not really. The Wampa scene I can live with bc I do like seeing the creature. The new song in Jabbas palace, yeah I don't like that (but then I wasn't all that fond of the old one either). And I'd prefer if Solo shot first like before. But these don't ruin the whole movie for me. NONE of the changes ruin the whole movie for me.
The lighsaber fights in the OT have emotional weight to them because they were all personal fights. Ben and Vader was essentailly a rematch. Luke and Vader, Luke was (in his mind) fighting the man who killed his father and Ben. It was to avenge them. And thats why that fight was so dangerous for Luke bc he was fighting with anger. The Luke vs Vader fight in ROTJ was very personal bc I've always felt that NEITHER of them wanted to fight each other. Vader was only doing it bc of the Emporer, like he was some programed droid. And Luke was just protecting himself. The fights in the PT weren't personal on that level. Jinn and Obi vs Maul wasn't a personal fight(well maybe for Maul a little bit) That fight didn't become personal until Jinn was killed and then it became personal for Obi Wan. I thought the fight between Anakin and Dooku had some emotion behind it. But again it wasn't that personal a fight. Most of the lightsaber battles in the PT weren't personal like they were in the OT. They weren't part of some vendetta or anything. It was simply good vs evil, which is what the WHOLE saga is about isn't it?
The Jedi were zealots. Thats why they had to die. The PT Jedi were the good guys with bad practices. And that fits with the theme of the PT. The good guys being so high on themselves that they can't see the snake in the grass about to strike. The Jedi were so wraped up in tradition and code that they couldn't figure what was going on until they were deflecting blaster shots from their own troops. Padme was clinging so tightly to the government she loved that she indirectly choked the life out of it. And again with Anakin whom she loved so much that she couldn't even let herself see the monster he was becoming. Theres a lot going on in the PT. There is substance there or there is the same lack of substance there as in the OT. I don't know why everyone hates the PT so much. I'm just as drawn to the PT as the OT. And I've introduced several people to SW by showing them the saga in order and no one ever complains about the PT. So what is it with us?
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and mb421 welcome to ISY and it is so interesting to read your opinoin and you have some very fine points. I like the fact that everyone here has argued their points and not directed any animosity or anger toward a person and is respecting their opinions.
I do understand what you are saying mb and I happened to really like the Clone Wars Anime with Genndy Tartakovsky as it showed us some really unique Clones, but once again thats just my opinion and that and twenty five cents won't get you a phone call nowadays.
The Clone Wars I was talking about was the 3d one where Anakin has an apprentice. The Tartikofski 2D version is AWESOME!!! I love that cartoon and count it along the SW saga as EP 2.25 and Ep 2.75. And I'm glad too that their is no animosity here as well. I do understand not liking the changes to the T. I'd just prefer GL left it alone. But he didn't. But fortunately (for me anyway) the changes don't really bother me. As far as the PT. I still think it just stems from the fact that it did not fit what we as fans imagined for 16+ years (9 for me) about what happened before ANH. But I could just be a weirdo. I mean Im one of the few that I know that loves Star Trek and Star Wars equally!
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Yeah, I didn't know anyone complained about the shockwave either but I've seen several post and some of my friends act like that shockwave ruins the whole trilogy.
OK I don't mean to call you out on this statement, but you just contradicted yourself, which is it, they complained or didn't?
The Wampa attack, Jabbas band, Solo shoots first; they changed the mood. But do they change the story? No they don't. Except for the Solo scene, the Wampa scene and the Jabba band scene could be taken out and it wouldn't affect the overall story too much. Do I like the new changes? Not really. The Wampa scene I can live with bc I do like seeing the creature. The new song in Jabbas palace, yeah I don't like that (but then I wasn't all that fond of the old one either). And I'd prefer if Solo shot first like before. But these don't ruin the whole movie for me. NONE of the changes ruin the whole movie for me.
I didn't say they ruined the movie, just that they did change the film's (and yes Solo shooting first does effect his story and character), The mood with Wampa and Jabba does effect the tone which also effects the story, at least in those parts.
The lighsaber fights in the OT have emotional weight to them because they were all personal fights. Ben and Vader was essentailly a rematch. Luke and Vader, Luke was (in his mind) fighting the man who killed his father and Ben. It was to avenge them. And thats why that fight was so dangerous for Luke bc he was fighting with anger. The Luke vs Vader fight in ROTJ was very personal bc I've always felt that NEITHER of them wanted to fight each other. Vader was only doing it bc of the Emporer, like he was some programed droid. And Luke was just protecting himself. The fights in the PT weren't personal on that level. Jinn and Obi vs Maul wasn't a personal fight(well maybe for Maul a little bit) That fight didn't become personal until Jinn was killed and then it became personal for Obi Wan. I thought the fight between Anakin and Dooku had some emotion behind it. But again it wasn't that personal a fight. Most of the lightsaber battles in the PT weren't personal like they were in the OT. They weren't part of some vendetta or anything. It was simply good vs evil, which is what the WHOLE saga is about isn't it?
Well when you get down to it, almost any story can be argued to be good vs. evil (even when those lines are not clearly defined as much as in SW). So just saying the whole saga is about Good vs. evil isn't a very compelling statement. The fact is that the Lightsaber battles had nothing to them in the PT, most of what you just said was inferred rather than exponged opon in the PT. However, in the OT you got something behind those battles.
The Jedi were zealots. Thats why they had to die. The PT Jedi were the good guys with bad practices. And that fits with the theme of the PT. The good guys being so high on themselves that they can't see the snake in the grass about to strike. The Jedi were so wraped up in tradition and code that they couldn't figure what was going on until they were deflecting blaster shots from their own troops. Padme was clinging so tightly to the government she loved that she indirectly choked the life out of it. And again with Anakin whom she loved so much that she couldn't even let herself see the monster he was becoming. Theres a lot going on in the PT. There is substance there or there is the same lack of substance there as in the OT. I don't know why everyone hates the PT so much. I'm just as drawn to the PT as the OT.
There is alot going on, and most of it is internalized which is the big problem. How exactly did Padme choke the life out of the Republic? I missed something somewhere there.
The best example is Anakin himself stairing off in Ep 3. Lucas (in the commentary) points out he is thinking of Padme, however he mucked up the story so much before that (with things like "I should be a master.") that the sceane doesn't play out that way. It's bad direction, bad scripting and bad storytelling and COULD have been much better (and similar theames have been done in past movies much more effectively).
The the thing about Jedi being zealots-Lucas has said the opposite, which again shows how he didn't really think about it this round.
Another great example, in the ep 1 extras when Lucas is walking around the designs look at the designers. They actually look a bit scared and when Lucas says a few oddball things you can see people want to say something but are afraid. He has surrounded himself with yes men, that sequence makes it clear.
And I've introduced several people to SW by showing them the saga in order and no one ever complains about the PT. So what is it with us?
Here is a better question, why does liking or not liking the PT automatically infer something "wrong?" Can we not have differing opinions?
As far as the PT. I still think it just stems from the fact that it did not fit what we as fans imagined for 16+ years (9 for me) about what happened before ANH. But I could just be a weirdo. I mean Im one of the few that I know that loves Star Trek and Star Wars equally!
Actually I like ST and SW equally overall.
But I do think there is more going on than expectations as well, in fact I would say that there is a whole mood to the saga that is missed in the PT. A prime example is the difference in spaceships. SW had a worn and used feel to them where as the PT seemed much, much cleaner. Now it's easy to argue that the Naboo ships would be that way as they were primarly cerimonial, but it seemed almost EVERY ship in the PT is super clean and just came out of space dock, even the warships that were supposed to have been used extensively, the droids 9tanks ect) also looked clean and new (until destroyed at least), the speeders, even the Tuskin village in Ep 2 looked clean and shiney in comparison to the Tantoine of 1977, Mos Espa's junk yard looked pretty crisp as well (especially the pod from 2001 that was there LOL), even Mustifar (which was supposed to be dealing with extreame temps) looked freshly built. Point is the whole PT was like that IMO. As a result it just never fit with the rest
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"OK I don't mean to call you out on this statement, but you just contradicted yourself, which is it, they complained or didn't?"
Yeah, I didn't know before hand that anyone even cared about the shockwave until I heard the complaints about it over the years. I thought I was clear on that, sorry.
"Well when you get down to it, almost any story can be argued to be good vs. evil (even when those lines are not clearly defined as much as in SW). So just saying the whole saga is about Good vs. evil isn't a very compelling statement. The fact is that the Lightsaber battles had nothing to them in the PT, most of what you just said was inferred rather than exponged opon in the PT. However, in the OT you got something behind those battles. "
Well can't that be said for the OT too? The saber battles in ROTS were personal to me weather they were fully explained or not. AOTC yeah, not so much and neither TPM so much. But still think those fights weren't on any personal level, therefore you wouldn't the same emotion behind them as you would the L vs V fight. IMHO anyway.
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But dude I have nothing against your or your opinion. Honestly some of this comes from the fact that a forum I was on, I was sorta "bullied" for being a prequel fan. (and an Trek fan) Nothing bad, just annoying. If you don't like them thats cool. I'd just like to know where some of this venom comes from sometimes. But I imagine one thing we can definately agree. TESB is the best SW movie EVAH!!!!!!!!!!!
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Nah, I won't resort to bulling, might not agree, might challenge, but not bully, not my style.
but I tend to just toss out counter points of my POV and opinion, healthy debate never hurt anyone. And as I said I'm not venomous against the prequels, but there is plenty that bugs me about them.
Since you brought up Trek (which I also love) I also feel the overwhelming desire to point out that Trek probably made SW a possiblity. Remember Trek was on the "rediscover" when SW was proposed and it probably opened the door for Science fictiony interests once again (It was pretty dead as a genre at that point). However, on the same token SW made Trek TMP a possiblity. In many ways they go hand in hand, but they are also apples and oranges.
Still if you ever saw Fanboys, there was that funny sceane with the SW fanboys and the Trek Fanboys that made me laugh pretty hard.
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"OK I don't mean to call you out on this statement, but you just contradicted yourself, which is it, they complained or didn't?"
Yeah, I didn't know before hand that anyone even cared about the shockwave until I heard the complaints about it over the years. I thought I was clear on that, sorry.
"Well when you get down to it, almost any story can be argued to be good vs. evil (even when those lines are not clearly defined as much as in SW). So just saying the whole saga is about Good vs. evil isn't a very compelling statement. The fact is that the Lightsaber battles had nothing to them in the PT, most of what you just said was inferred rather than exponged opon in the PT. However, in the OT you got something behind those battles. "
Well can't that be said for the OT too? The saber battles in ROTS were personal to me weather they were fully explained or not. AOTC yeah, not so much and neither TPM so much. But still think those fights weren't on any personal level, therefore you wouldn't the same emotion behind them as you would the L vs V fight. IMHO anyway.
OK I give you ROTS, I mentioned it earlier, but I did make a more sweeping statement above, so I will retract it a bit to say Ep 1 and 2.
Now I will grant you on Ep 1, although I thought Maul deserved a bit more build up.
However, I felt something COULD have been done on that emotional level with Dooku, he was a formar Jedi, essentally he had betrayed the order, knew everyone on the concil. There was potental that was wasted (And Christopher Lee had the chops to pull it off too, as he showed in LOTR with Gandalf vs. Saruman. That fight had more emotional undertones than Ep 2 and they came out nearly the exact same time and the undertone was established much quicker in LOTR as well).
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"OK I don't mean to call you out on this statement, but you just contradicted yourself, which is it, they complained or didn't?"
Yeah, I didn't know before hand that anyone even cared about the shockwave until I heard the complaints about it over the years. I thought I was clear on that, sorry.
"Well when you get down to it, almost any story can be argued to be good vs. evil (even when those lines are not clearly defined as much as in SW). So just saying the whole saga is about Good vs. evil isn't a very compelling statement. The fact is that the Lightsaber battles had nothing to them in the PT, most of what you just said was inferred rather than exponged opon in the PT. However, in the OT you got something behind those battles. "
Well can't that be said for the OT too? The saber battles in ROTS were personal to me weather they were fully explained or not. AOTC yeah, not so much and neither TPM so much. But still think those fights weren't on any personal level, therefore you wouldn't the same emotion behind them as you would the L vs V fight. IMHO anyway.
OK I give you ROTS, I mentioned it earlier, but I did make a more sweeping statement above, so I will retract it a bit to say Ep 1 and 2.
Now I will grant you on Ep 1, although I thought Maul deserved a bit more build up.
However, I felt something COULD have been done on that emotional level with Dooku, he was a formar Jedi, essentally he had betrayed the order, knew everyone on the concil. There was potental that was wasted (And Christopher Lee had the chops to pull it off too, as he showed in LOTR with Gandalf vs. Saruman. That fight had more emotional undertones than Ep 2 and they came out nearly the exact same time and the undertone was established much quicker in LOTR as well).
And that I will agree on. It didn't "bug me" but like Star Trek 3, it could've been better. Which is really my only gripe with the Prequels. I love the prequels, I enjoyed them very very much. But, I do have to admit, they could've been better. They could've been even more epic. I've always agreed with that.
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In fact I've had many ideas on how to improve the prequels. Anakin wouldn't be 10 in TPM. I'd make him 14-16ish. You could still get the tenderness of him leaving his mother behind and it would make it a bit more believable that he could handle spacecraft and pod racers etc. (Even though I've heard of kids that young flying single engine planes under supervision) And then you could get an actor that could act better. Personally I don't like many child actors because most of them can't act. I mean I though Jake did ok, but still. Qui Gon and Obi Wan wouldn't have been Master and Apprentice. Obi Wan would've been a knight. Their relationship would've been much more like what Anakin and Kenobi had. That way, no continuity error about Kenobi being taught by Yoda. Of course Jar Jar would've just been toned waaay down. I like his look but...yeah.
In Ep 2 I would show the friendship btw Obi and Ani more. I'd keep some of the tension. I do feel that Anakin, like his son, would be headstrong and not listen to his master always. And of course if you've been told during your traing that one day you'll basically save the galaxy, well that would make you arrogant. Anakins fall was all about wanting power to me. Not for selfish reasons, at least not at first. As he slid more toward the dark side it would become selfish. I’d also add a few more scenes with Ani and Palpatine to show his relationship with him and have Palps very very very subtlety pull his strings. His relationship with Padme wouldn't have been as awkward either and I think they should've both tried to keep from falling in love with each other and then at the end they’d realize their feelings could not be ignored. Him chasing after her was a bit creepy. Also I would’ve left Jango Fett in the story but not have him be the clones’ template. Just have him as a hired gun, don’t explain anything about him, maybe keep the scene in his apt. Cut out the fact the Boba is a clone . The whole droid factory thing would just be redone and leave out the Threepio gag. And as you stated, I would delve a little deeper into Dooku’s story. I did feel more weight could be placed on his story as he betrayed the Jedi order and the fight between him and Kenobi and Yoda should’ve been treated more personally.
Ep 3 I’d leave much of it alone. Maaayyybe tighten up the opening battle just a tad. I’d fix the battle droids voices so they sound like the Ep I droids and cut out the stupid humor. I’d show more of Ani and Kenobi’s relationship, just and extra scene of two. For Anakins turn, he turned because of his lust for power. That was his core reason. He knew it was wrong to lust for power and kept himself in check. In the effort to save Padme however, that gave him an excuse to gain more power. He did want to save his wife but his real, deep down desire was for power. I think it would’ve been interesting if that Anakin didn’t even know he was heading to the dark side, that Palpatine had Anakins head so twisted up and so fearful of losing what he loved, that he’s do anything to keep it, except join the dark side. But Anakin “moral vision” is so blurred he no longer knows whats right and wrong. And by the time we see him on Mustifar he’s become so twisted and evil. Yet he still doesn’t consider himself part of the darkside. It wouldn’t be until he’s in the suit and Palpatine has told what he’s done and broke what was left of his spirit that he’d join the darkside, only because he thinks he has nothing left, not because he wants to. I’d also change the “NOOO” to some demonic sounding scream while he force throws and crushed everything around him. The scenes with Padme and the other senators (which GL did film) should’ve been left in to at least show the seeds of the Rebellion. Watching them in order 1-6, yeah you can put 2 and 2 together fairly easy but it should be shown. Also Padme wouldn’t have died, at least no right off. Padme would’ve lived on to take care of Leia on Naboo, but then we flash forward to find that she has died. This would give more strength to her character and we can see that she did try to fight on. But I do feel she should be shown to be weaker than what Leia will be. That way Luke redeems his father for his weakness and Leia redeems her mother for hers. The way the scene would go, we see Ani get put in the suit and becomes Vader. At the same time the twins are born and we see Luke. Leia ,however, is never shown and it is implied that she died. (Obi Wan erases any all info on them both) We’d see Luke being delivered to Lars’ and then cut to a funeral procession where we see that Padme has died. We see Bale and other notable characters and see that they’ve aged. That’ll imply that this is some years later. The camera then pans to a little girl walking along with the procession. And then we cut to the shot the Star Destroyer bridge with Vader and the Emperor and we see the Death Star under construction. Since it’s already been established that this is a flash forward it’d bring the DS construction timeline more into continuity.
Anyway, that’s what I’d change.
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Wow, works for me MB.
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One of my major changes (If I could make one) would be Padme herself.
First she would have been a queen in title and tradition, not elected. Elected monarchs was a bit of a stretch to begin with, but then having her be elected to the highest office of the planet at 14 was a bit too much for me, evern worse when she said she wasn't the youngest elected-YIKES. I love my children, but I wouldn't let them run the vacum cleaner at 14.
But an inherited title made more sence, THEN after the events of Ep. 1 she returns as a senator, having given up her title and thus ending the monarchy on her planet (the reason, she truely believed in democracy THAT MUCH. I think it would also make a signifigant difference in her character when Palpatine is taking over and the early rebellion sceanes).
Lastly, in ep 3 I would have had her die from truma, not "losing the will to live." and thus weakening the character further. While a bit darker, to say the truma was too great for th med droids to fix would have been plauseable no matter how advanced the technology is. Saving the babies, again we can do that now so not much of a stretch. This also makes Vader's reaction a bit more plauseable (as he might sence the truth in Palpatine's words).
HB I like a bunch of your ideas too.
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In a word - NO.
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I am a big fan of the original trilogy, and even though Episodes I, II, & III had flaws, I really enjoyed them. My biggest quip with them is the clutter on screen (TOO MUCH CGI IMAGES ), and whiney Anakin in episode II. However I feel that George did a great job on them, trying to please 2 generations of fans. I wouldn't want to be George Lucas. He had a tough job. He put his imagination up for all to see. Some liked it, some didn't. I for one feel that Jar Jar wasn't all that bad. I also enjoy the Clone Wars, although I had a problem with it being all CGI at first, but I've gotten over it. I suspect Disney will put out good movies, mostly because if they don't they are out 4 billion bucks. I'm new on the Imperial Shipyards, so go easy on me.
Rich
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Jedi Master Z everyone is entitled to their opininon whether you are new or not. I agree with a lot of what you said too by the way. And welcome to the Yards!
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I've not had a chance to read all of the posts here but have browsed through.
There have been some interesting points and reading some from fans who weren't about when the OT was first released has opened my eyes and swayed my opinion.
I will always have a soft spot for the original movies simply because when I leave a suitable gap between seeing the films there is still a feeling of magic when I re visit them, I don't get that feeling with the prequels. That doesn't mean Lucas failed with Ep1, it simply means that he had an almost impossible task to begin with.
Someone made a great argument comparing winey Anakin (Ep2) with winey Luke (ESB) and Jar Jar with C3PO making the point that both characters can be annoying at times, and that made me realise that I have viewed the whole argument with rose tinted glasses. All of the movies have their failings if you look at them in the cold light of day, but that defeats the object. You don't go into a haunted house and point out all of the faults, you enjoy the ride.
So by being devils advocate I have changed my mind about the complete saga. All I can say is that they are all wonderful and unique pieces of film making which are unlikely to be beaten in terms of their originality and sheer spectacle.
Lucas has touched millions with his vision, what a legacy!