Topic: Star Wars Episode VII (Spoiler Alert)

[Mandalore25]

Excuses? I substantiated all points, I don't see how much worse it could have been, and examined both sides of every proposed point, example furthered the bleeding argument with the blood on Han's Hands. Watching 1-6 makes 7 look even worse, like some freshman lit major's fanfic.  I'm fully aware not all lasers are hot, based on the movies they are, and like I said after examining the evidence I think it's left to the director to set the tone of the scene.

I've been shown this, and have to say I agree with most of them, some are ill thought out, but the majority are good: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/seth-abramson/40-unforgivable-plot-holes-in-star-wars-the-force-awakens_b_8850324.html

[JDeck]

Those are all nit picky reasons. Not even worth getting into. If that's why you don't like it, that's unfortunate. I'm glad you're doing research on why you don't like the movie. I would much rather enjoy it. Even movies based on historical events aren't entirely accurate, all the time. Books will always be better than movies. You should have probably read the book before seeing the movie. From what I hear though the book doesn't go into a whole lot of details, but its the basic story.

[krztfr]

It was better than the prequals and thats all i really cared about.

[Tamer]

That old man from the beginning has me wondering too. He seems to be an old friend of Leia's at least and is seemed to be well known to the Rebellion. We didn't get a chance to talk about that much, but we only got through about half of what we wanted to talk about.

The tentative plan is to go live again Friday evening. Its not totally set, but I will let you know when we are getting back to this discussion.

Don't forget if you want to get involved on that Facebook Group my pal Chad started let me know and I can add you. The first thing you need to do is friend request me if we aren't friends on Facebook yet as that is the only way I can add you.

[Commander_Kurgan]

Can you add me, please? I'd like to stay in the loop.

[The Spectre]

So I finally saw "The Force Awakens" today as my wife and her mother wanted to see it.

I really had no enthusiasm about the film as I am still disappointed in Disney's scrapping of the Expanded Universe of novels, comics, role playing supplements, etc. in favor of a fresh start. I will not address any of that below, I will just comment on the film itself as a separate entity.

After having had a few hours to digest the movie, I am putting some of my thoughts out there.

The Good:

Harrison Ford back as Han Solo. There were several bits where it really felt like Solo as "back" and not just Ford collecting a check. My favorite bit was when the tentacle monsters were tear assing through his freighter and Han runs straight into one of the marauders invading his ship and he, without missing a beat, punches the invader in the face and tosses him into the oncoming creature's maw. That really felt like Han Solo to me. Also, his relationship with Chewbacca felt more like an equal partnership in this film than in any of the Original Trilogy films.

The heavy use of practical effects, models and sets as opposed to relying on cgi. That is what took you out of the realism in the Prequels, knowing that the actors were not on physical sets or interacting with creatures/droids that were actually in front of them. This movie, save for a few noticeable bits, stayed away from cgi and it was appreciated.

Daisy Ridley as Rey. This relative newcomer really shined in all of her scenes and will be a great role model and hero to kids (both girls and boys).

The Bad:

This is my major problem: the whole movie felt like a rehash of "A New Hope" with tidbits from the rest of the OT thrown in. Essentially they ticked off a bunch of boxes for what made people love Star Wars the first time around (i.e. human on a desert world finds a mysterious droid- check, giant killer space station - check, trench run - check, cantina scene - check, rescuing someone from giant killer space station - check, etc. etc. etc.) just pumped up on steroids (i.e. lets make the giant killer space station LOLhuge, etc.) and shot from different angles. As poorly as the Prequels were received/remembered/etc., at least they tried to tell a different story than just rehashing what had come before.

The designs of the First Order Stormtroopers. The original Stormtroopers were fearsome because their helmets resembled skulls. The First Order Stormtrooper helmets look like a cross between Donald Duck and the first live action version of Howard the Duck. Add to that the overall soft rounded look to rest of their armor and you have the Empire by way of the Apple Store. Not very imposing.

Finn was terrible. I am not one of those small minded people that are mad because an African American (yes, I know he is British but I don't know what the proper term for a British person of color is and I do not want any PC knuckleheads giving me any shit) was cast as one of the man characters. I was actually impressed that he was cast and generally like the actor, I thought he was excellent in "Attack The Block" and would love to see him on an episode of "Doctor Who" someday. What annoyed me was his constant Chris Tucker-esque reactions to situations. It was such a waste to have this actor in such a prominent place in the film if he was just going to be the "funny overreacting black guy". He deserved better. We deserved better. Also, I am not sure if that was the director or actor's intention with the character, but it really came off like Finn has a crush on Poe Dameron.

The way the new X-Wings s-foils separate is just stupid. There, I said it.

J.J. Abrams made the same mistake he made in "Star Trek" in regards to just how vast space actually is. In the OT, you got a real sense that it took significant amounts of time to go from one place to another despite the actual screen time used. In this film, it literally looked like they start up the ship, fly for a few minutes and arrive at their destination. Same thing with being able to witness the destruction of the Hosnian System from whatever planet Maz's place was on, you would not be able to see the destruction of planets, even in a neighboring system, with the naked eye as the distances are just too vast. I understand suspension of disbelief, but that is really stretching it.

The underuse of all of the Original Trilogy characters save for Solo and (to a lesser extent) Chewbacca. I understand saving Luke for Episode VIII, but having Leia, R2, 3-PO, Ackbar, Nein Numb, etc. not doing much of anything aside from being fan service was kind of a waste of having them in the film. Hopefully they will be given more to do (especially Leia) in the next 2 movies. Also, where was Lando, the smoothest pimp in the galaxy?

These are just some of the impressions I took away from the movie. While it was an entertaining way to spend a Sunday morning, it just didn't work for me.

I feel kind of cheated knowing that because of this film, great characters like Grand Admiral Thrawn, Admiral Pellaeon, Mara jade, Talon Karrde, Kir Kanos, et all and their exploits (as well as over 30 years worth of Han/Luke/Leia/etc. adventures) have been wiped from reality and relegated to the "alternate reality" of the "Legends" imprint, never to be seen or heard from again in new adventures. I understand that this film was not made for me, or those like me, this film was made for this generation.
 I honestly hope it make a whole new generation of Star Wars fans though because even though it was disrespectful to those of us that kept the flames alive during the dark times between Trilogies by reading the novels and comics, Star Wars as an entity should go on.

[Tamer]

Good points Dan. Good points. I like that vastness of space point.

[Mandalore25]

I feel cheated as well in regards to it's not written for me either, nor those my age (early 20s, last years of generation Y). The prequels failed to captivate most my age past their childhood, and the few I do know were distraught the prequels ended while we were still so young, so we ate up the EU to get our Star Wars fix, only to be destroyed by our favorite characters being lost as Disney fades them out of existence. We're actually hurting a bit over it, as our childhoods are washed away. Similar to what some claim the prequels did to their childhood, but at least the OT still existed. It seems well received by kids (probably the tail end of generation Z now), but I feel skipped over simply for loving something, and I agree that Star Wars should be something to live on, but should it really be in such a poor state? Come on, I only need to mention Mara Jade, one character that makes the new canon instantly inferior. It's hard to let go of something you spent your entire life with, especially when it was the EU fans that kept star wars alive, and without us Disney wouldn't have wanted Star Wars, it would have been old news with no life for the past decade.

Vastness of space is another great point. I hadn't thought of being able to see the destruction from Maz's castle, kinda glass shattering, and it's a very obvious thing to miss, especially when they see it through the atmosphere in the daytime.

[JDeck]

I thought the destruction of Maz's castle was significant, because here you have this 1,000 year old seemingly all knowing sage who was warned by Finn, the First Order was going to attack, but she brushed it off. I have no doubt she died in the assault. If not she was severely humbled. The whole movie was sort of rushed, they could have made another movie out of all the content. With the vastness of space, there's no way they had time to have a space chess game or whatever. It would have dragged the movie out even longer, and compressed the important parts, even more. Like ROTJ, it didn't have a traveling scene. They just went from one place to the other in no time.
   The old man I suppose is a an Obiwan type character. He may have been watching Rey from a far. Knowing who she is, but not interfering with her life.
   I feel as if this movie/trilogy was made for me. I'm the lost generation, born a couple years after ROTJ. I grew up with the OT but they didn't seem like my movies, I missed out on the fan fare. The Special Edition Fan fare was fun, but the movies themselves were disappointing, just a way to get people to watch movies they've already seen. Same with the prequels, I wasn't young enough to really like them.
     Even the commercial ads on TV with TFA themes are geared towards my demographic. I've seen at least 4 different car commercials, Verison, ect. but not any Pepsi products or Taco bell toys or whatever. Nothing geared towards kids in other words, like we've seen with the other movies. This trilogy is really what I've been looking for, for a long time.

[Commander_Kurgan]

Maybe I'm playing a bit of the devil's advocate here, but I think that we, the fans since Day One are not the majority of those who are watching the movie at this point in time.
Having seen the movie several times now, I look around at the theater and I think that I'm one of the oldest people in the lobby.
Everybody else is a lot yonger, very likely the fan group which has been exposed to Star Wars when The Phantom Menace came out.
For them TFA might not be as much of an Ep.IV kitbash as it is for some of us.

Having said that, I want to tell you that I really like this movie.
However, I've read somewhere that about 40 minutes of film material ended up on the floor of the cutting room. I'd hazard the guess that the holes in the story would be plugged by exactly this material.

Now, I really loved Daisy Ridley as Rey. She's a strong, yet vulnerable character with lots of potential. Very likely she has been trained as a youngling by...whoever...and dropped off in safety on Jakku. Mind-wipe or not, she's definitely a tough cookie, having spent twenty years or so growing up in that harsh environment, fending for herself for quite a while.

It seems to be the fashion these days to bash Kylo Ren. He appeared weak in the Force when I saw the movie for the first time, but re-viewing the movie, he stops blaster bolts in midair, pulls the First Order officer towards him by Force, interrogates by mind penetration and does other cool stunts which we have not seen any other Force user do in any other movie or series episode.
I'm not sure that Adam Driver, who might be a terriffic guy personally, is the right actor to play Kylo Ren. I think he's too bland, expressionless, one-dimensional. My two Cents only, of course.
However, the character of Kylo Ren has the potential to be the most complex Star Wars villain. Luring his own father into a TRAP in order to overcome his uncertainty, to shake off the remains of the light side and complete his journey towards the dark side. Even Vader was too conflicted within and could not kill his own flesh and blood.

Well, I could write a lot more, from Finn over Phasma to Luke and others, but it's getting late here. Maybe tomorrow.

[JDeck]

  I think if its a good movie it will appeal to all ages. I wouldn't put TFA up there with the Wizard of Oz, but as far as new movies go, its pretty good. Its PG-13, so its not geared towards kids specifically, like The Phantom Menace was. But most kids love it. Its breaking every box office record except Avatar's. Even my Dad saw it, he never goes to the theater, and he really enjoyed it. Ironically the ones who hate this movie the most  are Star Wars fans, just seems strange. Kids are more likely to go see it at this point 2-3 weeks into the release, teens watch movies over and over, dozens of times. Adults have things to do. I'd like to see it again soon but, just no time. Plus I don't really enjoy going to the movies.
    I bet there are just tons of deleted scenes they'll put in the Bluray DVD. That will enhance the movie. Like the deleted scenes from the OT, in the bluray set.

  Kylo Ren really is underrated. He is powerful, but his flaws make him a relatable character. Vader was tough, you never saw his flaws until ROTJ. Vader was the ultimate bad guy. Kylo I believe will become more Vader like throughout the next two movies. It'll show a deeper transition into the Dark side. I don't think he'll be reformed like Vader, he'll be killed in ep.9.

[Tamer]

I am absolutely loving what I am reading here. So many varied viewpoints and such good thought. You guys make me proud to be a SW Fan.

[Mandalore25]

While I see the build up for complexity in Kylo Ren, it seems to haphazard, like I mentioned before, if they use the story of what happened to Luke's order as the logical plot device that they are building towards, it will make the character worse. Explaining it out of order to make him darker will make him truly go Darker, Lighter, Darker. Most won't notice it, as the plot device will seem to make sense (for they'll show Kylo treading deeper on his dark path + this to enact full effect) in the way it the movie plays out, but it won't for anyone who puts any thought into it. Hoping it won't quite play out that way, but they're really pointing at that happening. I'm still rooting for he feels he did something unforgivable, and now feels he needs to fallow this path. It's the most logical way he could feel the light pulling him (the light side doesn't work that way, even in the new canon), in my opinion. Making him stay a lighter character than he wants us to believe, which makes me feel he'll be redeemed at the end but live to mirror the OT with a twist like they've been doing. His flaws made him seem less relatable in my mind, temper tantrums? The feeling his dad is the enemy is pretty normal for a teen, but he's what early-mid twenties, my age even, and I can't relate. Maybe the teen audience would love him, for they'll probably relate. I never questioned his power, but the problem is it's too raw, and he seems to ignorant to see his lack of discipline. Killing Han seemed irrelevant to me, his struggles are to internal for external to really have an effect on his walk down the dark side. Like one of those things someone does because they feel they have to, thinking it will help, but when all said and done it just makes things worse. Though that could be the case, the movie never showed Kylo after he'd had a chance to reflect, that would make me find him relatable, just a simple human aspect everyone has done before. We also know, Harrison Ford signed on for the next film, so there is a chance we're only supposed to think he's dead like all the characters, and did it so he'd finally come face to face with Snoke, as someone mentioned, maybe he's finishing Vader's task to destroy the sith. This would also explain why he wants us to perceive him as darker than he really is. So much potential, and very open ended to where many different things could happen, maybe Luke is even in on it? Probably not, but an example of a possibility since we're given so little, would be nice to see it not be what they seem to be pointing to.

It's not the fanbase from the Phantom Menace, that's my age group, they're younger than me, if they saw any of the prequels in theaters, it would be episode III, and they'd have been really young. The young Fanbase seems early high school and below.

40 minutes is a lot of cutting, extended editions like LOTR perhaps? Might make me pick it up. It's not like the movie was boring, I'd have rather sat there, and watched more if it would have cleared things up.

[JDeck]

Kylo Ren made his choice. He killed his Father and decided to turn fully to the Dark Side. Before then he kept feeling the Light side calling him. That could have been Luke, or his own conscious telling him he's wrong. Either way he has some inner conflict, like Vader in ROTJ. Don't take it literally, like the actual force is calling him. I don't think the audience will forgive Kylo for killing Han. Kylo is not a lovable character at all. His tantrums arent so much relatable, but i think we all know someone who acts like that, to a certain  degree. If you don't then well. Its pretty annoying. Vader didn't do anything like that in the OT. He usually killed unimportant characters, and it was Tarkin who blew up Alderaan. He killed Windu but Windu was sort of a jerk, nobody really cared. Of course he killed Padme, but by accident. Vader wasn't lovable but the audience didn't hate him either. I believe that was done on purpose so the audience would forgive him in ROTJ. Vader did kill Obiwan, but Obiwan allowed himself to be destroyed for a higher purpose, makes a slight difference. There's plenty of room for Kylo to be redeemed, but at this point in the trilogy it doesn't seem likely. If Kylo died no one would shed a tear. Even chewy wants to kill him. He may even survive into Ep.10.? Who knows.
    I believe the guy that played Anakin will be in 8, so I believe solo and Anakin will return as a flashback, meybe a Kylo flashback. I'm not a fan of the flashbacks, but I'll get used to it.
 April can't come soon enough.
    They won't add the deleted scenes to the movie, it'll just be a bonus feature, if anything.

    I imagine the Knights of Ren and Snoke being like Shredder and the Foot Clan in the old turtles movie. Just a bunch of messed up kids being influenced by power. That'll be cool to see how it really plays out. That's what's great about a sequel trilogy, we don't know how it turns out.

[JDeck]

   Another great podcast Force Awakens edition!

   I really liked the aliens in TFA especially the ones in Maz Kanata's castle. They really gave me the impression they were pirates. Like that red guy, the "Crimson Corsair". He really looks like a French style buccaneer, to me anyway. His helmet sort of looks like a French bicorn hat. Even the word corsair is a French word used referring to a pirate, or freelancer.  I like how that one guy had a peg-leg that was cool. They just all looked like space pirates, and a laid back pirate swagger it was cool. And I really like the band too, reggae rocks.
    The monster aliens on Han's ship I thought were a little too much, they could have toned it down a bit. They definitely gave the audience the impression they were fierce animals. I do think those guys that boarded Han's ship should have been Trandosians or something. It would have been slightly better.
   The way I've always looked at Star Wars aliens is the way they look is a reflection of their personality. Perfect example Yoda, looks like Einstein. You can't have another one of Yoda's species in star wars. Same with Jabba his look is his personality, slimy, fat, worm guy. I've met many types of people over the years with unique personalities and looks, and I think having different aliens throughout the movies rings true in my mind. But if you throw in a jawa or ugnaught in once in a while, that's alright. Although I associate Jawas with Tatooine, Jakku is a whole nother word. If you had a bunch of Jawas on Jakku they would take people's jobs. The locals wouldn't have that.