Author Topic: I have a question and criticism of Imperial/Rebel tactics....  (Read 7634 times)

Offline CamoDeafie

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As much as I love Star Wars OT; and the storyline..... I've been reading combat tactics and watching military documentaries...and it came to mind that comparing the tactics to the OT battles; and possibly the PT battles as well....

Did they somehow lose all tactical knowledge from centuries ago and revert to an older form of combat with new technology!? I mean... OK here's the criticism by Episode; OT first...as it's been a while since I saw the PT Episodes...

Episode IV; A New Hope;
 The Climatic Battle; Battle of Yavin;
the Trench runs. even with most of the group wiped out; why couldn't they have sent a couple fighters BEHIND the TIE fighters in the trench as they bore down onto the three Rebel fighters in each run? Heck; even if Wedge was unable to cover for Luke from the front; he could have made an Immelmann Loop behind Vader and fired upon the TIE fighters while being out of their line of sight..... I understand that the Rebels only had 2 torpedoes each; so whoever shot em off; had to go out the trench and engage the TIE fighters and tower guns....but they couldn't spare one or two fighters to provide rear cover for the rear protection detail? (5 ships instead of 3)

Episode V; Empire Strikes Back
OK I understand the landing of the walkers outside the Shield ranges; why didn't they use X wings to shoot at em instead of the SnowSpeeders, which they were having problems adapting to the cold?
Also; the shield generator is quite....undefended for such an important item....why didn't they put the Ion Cannon next to it......I mean, if the Ion Cannon could knock out an Imperial Star Destroyer; surely an AT-AT is much easier to hit.....
Logistics; what is up with not being able to retrieve all the equipment they had.... I realize the medical Droid made the reference that they didn't have the TIME; but still, a lot of the equipment could have been salvaged.....And then there's the whole "Land the Millennium Falcon onto the tower of one Destroyer in full view of other destroyers and hope they get away with it" that kinds of bugs me....what; they don't fly with escort fighters with extra eyeballs to keep track of things like possible sabotuers and scuttling charges from small craft!? even 20th century battleships sailed with escort craft for the exact same reason....

Episode VI Return of the Jedi
What is up with the apparent inability of the AT-STs to resist exploding every time something big hits their heads!? For "All Terrain" vehicles, they sure are VERY clumsy when subjected to rolling logs..... and traps, which the Ewoks apparently made in the course of the night.... as for the Space Battle scene up by the Second Death Star.....well ....some of the tactics make sense; but others doesn't.... I mean....apparently none of the Imperial Star Destroyers and Command Destroyers and Super Destroyers have secondary controls/bridges...that could keep the craft afloat even after losing the primary parts? and how is it that destroying the Command Tower causes the whole thing to rotate and crash into the Death Star surface!? Is that where the Anti-Gravity controls are; and they don't have emergency cut-offs as well as back-up controls?
 Even more so; the fact that they apparently had HUGE ports with clean line of fire into the Reactor core of the Second Death Star after what happened to the first; makes me wonder....why didn't they put priority onto protecting these ports with either shields (a few of those Star Destroyer Shield Generator balls would have helped IMMENSELY) or blast doors instead of trying to finish the cladding and having it operational first.... I mean...if it were up to me to be the commander; I would've put priority onto making sure NOTHING can get into these corridors, before making it operational, and leave the tertiary things for last, such as cladding and making quarters or crew.... there's star destroyers to bunk on..... I understand they were undergoing construction; but its like making a fortress with the walls and towers and forgetting to protect the entrances and egress parts and leaving the gates unguarded while getting the main batteries up first..... a big no-no even back in Vauban's time (1600s)

Episode 1- Phantom Menace
 THe Blockade....wait what, a thin RING of ships to cover a sphere? ha. ha. ha. ha. ha. not effective....even for a planet that isn't a major military power....
Trade Federation ship designs leave MUCH to be desired.....someone made a great article on that; I can't find it...
Droid army versus Gungans...
OOM-9 needs to study tactics and update them..instead of having infantry in squares up front with artillery behind...which was proven ineffective in American Civil War and in WW1... and where were the Vulture Droid fighters to provide air  cover!?

Episode II- Attack of the Clones
 OK I get it; the Geonesians and the droid armies were surprised by the Clone armies landing and attacking them....but their tactics...is basically a bigger version of the Naboo battle; with still no real air cover other than the gunships....I am still questioning the wisdom of doing lines against lines versus making a pincer movement and surrounding the armies...

Episode III Revenge of the Sith
 the introductory space battle reminds me of a mix of the Battle of Jutland/Trafalgar naval battles and an aerial dogfight.....of the movies, this one showed a much more sensible view of how space battles really ought to go.......even though it was quite confusing..... one thing that really bugs me....you just don't fly fighters between battling capital ships.... just like you don't engage picket runners and torpedo boats between dueling battleships.....you're bound to lose A LOT of good weaponry and pilots doing that....I mean really....it would make more sense to see the starfighters fly either above, or below the dueling capital ships; which in a few scenes, it seems to be done like that with the ARC-170s against the Vulture Droids; just; the two Jedis and their flight of ARC-170s going between the dueling capital ships....well there goes the idiot ball...I understand they needed to get onto the Invisible Hand; but they could've done so from above instead of running the gauntlet.....space is after all, a 3 dimensional area....



Offline Tamer

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Re: I have a question and criticism of Imperial/Rebel tactics....
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2013, 12:33:52 PM »
Lots of good points. I have always wondered why Y-Wings weren't sent again Imperial Walkers. One would think an Ion Cannon would disable the electronics at least.

Offline CamoDeafie

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Re: I have a question and criticism of Imperial/Rebel tactics....
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2013, 12:50:35 PM »
Lots of good points. I have always wondered why Y-Wings weren't sent again Imperial Walkers. One would think an Ion Cannon would disable the electronics at least.

precisely...and the Y wing was expressly designed as an attack fighter/strafing/close support.... and it would've been a cinematic awesomeness to have a few Y wings avenge the death of the other Y wing pilots in Battle of Yavin.....by wiping out the AT-ATs...which clearly didn't have air support either.....they could've brought the TIE fighters physically attached to a carrier walker and then launched them underneath the shields....much like how the Rebels were able to launch their ships from the surface to get past the blockade....

Offline Wardog

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Re: I have a question and criticism of Imperial/Rebel tactics....
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2013, 12:03:50 AM »
One thing that I've always wondered is that surely the Rebels would of had a better strategy in ESB to defend against the AT-ATs.  Surely they would of thought "Ok, the Empire has walkers...we need to sort out some sort of defence systems to deal with them if they come knocking".....like maybe landmines or wide and deep trenches so when the walker stands in them they trip over.

From an Imperial stand point why didn't they send in a few squadrons of Tie Bombers to take out the Rebel Troopers on the ground whilst the AT-AT's and AT-ST's sorted out the fighters and those ships trying to flee?

ALL HAIL THE HIGH ORDER OF DWARF THROWERS FROM THE BIG FLOWER MYSTERY HOUSE OF BADONKADONK

Offline SOLOGRUNT

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Re: I have a question and criticism of Imperial/Rebel tactics....
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2014, 12:50:51 AM »
All of you make valid points and I have been sitting here contemplating them all. Dang all of you. Just Kidding. Anyways, Deafie brought up a good point with the Millennium Falcon attaching to the Star Destroyer and yelling B/S. As a military man myself who has seen my fair share on ship, I know that not a lot of viewing points are available besides the bridge. Adding windows and extra exterior decks compromises sound defensible structure. An escort or two was also mandatory in today's military, so the Falcon should have been discovered. I guess we will never know. Great posts. My mind is still running.
"Execute order 66"

Offline Rezikai

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Re: I have a question and criticism of Imperial/Rebel tactics....
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2014, 05:43:38 PM »
wouldn't it be awesome if in one of the spin off movies it shows a character from Echo Base surviving Hoth, and Abrams splices in the AT AT's w/veers with new footage adding in aireal battles over the skies (though most if not all of the fighters were assigned to protect the escaping transports so the speeders are the best the rebels had). Maybe even some real nice C-Q-C fighting between snowtroops and Hoth rebs fighting it out in the trenches, snow speederbike troops... and ....hmmmm Tie fighters/Bombers with snow/frost on their  solar panel wings as they swoop in supporting the AT AT and other imperial army forces.... aerial combat over Hoth... ah..

Battle of Hoth revisted with today's thoughts/technology could be quite a thing... perhaps someone could suggest it...hehe.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 08:47:29 PM by Rezikai »

Offline Tamer

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Re: I have a question and criticism of Imperial/Rebel tactics....
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2014, 02:11:13 AM »
Rezikai, I like the sound off you are suggesting.

Offline ServO

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Re: I have a question and criticism of Imperial/Rebel tactics....
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2014, 06:52:08 AM »
I guess I'd like to interject here for a minute about the battle of Hoth.
The Empire Strikes Back is my thing, so I would like to contribute a little bit to this conversation.

The thing about the battle of Hoth that you have to keep in mind is that the Rebel Alliance never intended Hoth to be a permanent situation.
The entire base, and how it was staffed was purposely designed to be evacuated, and abandoned on a moments notice.
The very instant that the rebels thought something was up (when Han and Chewie encounter the probe droid), they began the evacuation...this plan of action was put into motion before the Imperial fleet even arrived in the system.
The shield was in place simply to buy them some time in order to facilitate the evacuation. Without that shield, the entire outpost could have been obliterated from orbit in a few moments. That shield forced the Empire to commit resources to a ground assault, and that process gave the rebels precious moments to keep working on getting people off world.
The suggestion was made about using Y-Wings, and X-Wings to attack the Imperial Walkers...where I'm sure this would have been very effective against the Imperial armor, it simply was not practical since the X-Wings were needed to provide escort for the escaping transports...
Take a look at this pic:
http://dawnofthejedi.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/echobase.jpg
This cutaway shows a great rendition of how part of Echo Base was set up...
The fighter/bomber compliment at Echo base was probably quite small, even though the Wookieepedia states 60 fighters, and 30 medium transports...in that pic alone I count 20 X-Wings/Y-Wings, and 4 medium transports. There would have to be 2 more levels of structure to accommodate a fighter compliment of that size...not to mention the space you'd need to store another 26 medium transports...I just don't find those numbers very sensible.
When you consider that the bulk of the Rebel fleet was out in space somewhere hiding as well...I would wager that the majority of the fighters, and attack craft were left with the fleet to protect the capital ships, run patrols, and whatnot.
Not to mention...how long did that battle last? Was the Imperial Navy so incompetent that it allowed 30 transports to slip through? Going back to the Wookieepedia, it states that 17 of the transports were destroyed...it also talks about Renegade squadron getting into combat with Darth Vader...and here is where I start to lose focus...Reading the entire Wookieepedia entry for this battle makes it seem more like a campaign lasting a couple of days versus a quick, decisive battle and retreat by the rebels. I love EU as much as the nerd standing next to me, but simply going off the original information given to us by the film, the outcome of the battle of Hoth was determined by the Rebels before the base was even constructed.
Which leads me to an even bigger question...why was Echo base needed at all? We know there are smaller rebel outposts scattered across the galaxy, but the bulk of the infrastructure lies within the main fleet itself...this is demonstrated at the end of Empire, and most of Return of the Jedi.

I love talking about stuff like this.


Offline Tamer

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Re: I have a question and criticism of Imperial/Rebel tactics....
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2014, 12:19:11 PM »
Very iinteresting points all. Makes you go hmm....